Based Series | Weekly Founder Feature: Daos.World Founder AzFlin
Source: Tako
Editor's Note: In order to provide direct access to Alpha founders, Tako recently established the Founders Club and launched the "Discover Base Alpha" series of interviews in collaboration with BlockBeats. This series will regularly introduce readers to projects within the Base ecosystem that are highly potential, innovative in product, and have a high-quality team background, inviting project founders to share their insights. At the same time, it also provides an opportunity for users interested in emerging and hot projects to directly engage with the founders.
This edition's guest for the interview is AzFlin, the founder of Daos.World. The following is a transcript of this AMA:
Table of Contents
1. AzFlin's Background and Experience
3. Differentiation of Daos.World
4. Multi-Chain Strategy
5. View on Industry Trend Changes
6. Social Features of Daos.World
7. How to Participate in Daos.World
8. Vision and Philosophy
9. Entrepreneurship Insights and Lessons
10. Work-Life Balance
11. Other Community Q&A

AzFlin's Background and Experience
Julie:
We are pleased to introduce this week's guest - AzFlin (@azflin), the co-founder of daos.world (@daosdotworld).
AzFlin is a technically savvy developer who transitioned from Traditional Finance (TradFi) to Web3 in 2021. He has worked at the pioneering NFT aggregation platform Genie and Uniswap before immersing himself in what he calls "trench dev," engaging in various projects on the frontlines of the crypto world.
This journey eventually led to the creation of daos.world, a decentralized DAO launchpad, aiding DAO managers in on-chain fundraising and fund management. daos.world initially launched on Base at the end of 2024, expanding to Solana thereafter, with the aim of becoming the "world's largest DAO launchpad" by offering transparent, trustless investment opportunities through a unique project selection and whitelist mechanism.
AzFlin's vision is to explore new token issuance models and drive greater value through DAOs. By implementing stringent team reviews, requiring project teams to provide private documents to ensure accountability, and introducing the innovative DWL token system, he has built a platform focused on quality and reputation.
Welcome AzFlin to the Founders Club! Next, we will hear him share the entrepreneurial journey of daos.world, his perspective on cross-chain development, and how to build an incentive-aligned system in Web3. Feel free to ask any questions, whether about his transition from TradFi to "trench dev" or feedback on daos.world, speak your mind.
AzFlin:
Thank you for the invitation, Julie. I really enjoy Tako's asynchronous long-form interview format, especially the functionality to sync across platforms to Warpcaster, very powerful.
I usually prefer text-based communication rather than voice meetings. So, this format suits me well.
Let me briefly introduce my background, from mundane development in traditional finance to the shift to "trench dev." I have been programming for over 10 years, majored in Mathematics in college, and then worked for 7 years in TradFi doing Python+SQL+data analysis. Back then, I had no passion for work, just wanted to get by, had no ambition, just wanted to enjoy life—completely different from my mindset now.
In 2021, I joined a Solidity boot camp called Chainshot, reigniting my passion for programming. Later, I joined Genie (the first NFT aggregation trading platform) as the lead engineer. I fell in love with the industry's rapid pace of innovation—the constant stream of new things every day, where anyone could create a blockbuster project at any moment. My experience at Genie truly captivated me in the crypto world.
A year later, Genie was acquired by Uniswap. Compared to a startup, Uniswap's large company pace was much slower, with all sorts of meetings, documents, and processes that I found hard to adapt to. I enjoyed rapid development, working alone or in a small team. A year later, I was fired because of a so-called "rug pull shitcoin" incident (the specific story can be found online, but I won't go into detail here). But this turned out to be a blessing in disguise, giving me the opportunity to develop independently and also gaining some recognition in the industry.
Then came the "trench development" phase. After leaving Uniswap, I independently developed various small projects on different chains and took on some freelance work. Whenever I had an interesting idea, I would either pursue it alone or collaborate with others. This phase was very challenging—going from a stable high salary to earning money from sporadic projects, sometimes going weeks or even months without income, sometimes putting in a lot of effort into a project that received little attention, and sometimes seeing a small side project unexpectedly take off.
"Trench development" is full of randomness, but you learn a lot and have the complete freedom to do what you want. It was this experience that eventually led me to found daos.world. In November 2024, I decided to fork the then-popular daos.fun and, together with another partner, spent a month creating an MVP. Through luck and timing, we also gained popularity.
Now, I am completely immersed in entrepreneurship.
Q1.1 - Tako User@jamesx:
As a founder, I can understand the various challenges, joys, and surprises you have experienced. I would like to know, since the launch of your project, what has been your happiest moment?
AzFlin:
Probably sitting in Telegram watching everyone frantically spamming whitelist commands, or going downstairs for a smoke and having a moment of contemplation on what to do next.
Daos.World 101
Q2.1 - Julie:
For those who are new to daos.world, how would you introduce it in 30 seconds? What is its core mission? Why should Tako users pay attention?
AzFlin:
"DAO + Meme Token" is an explosively powerful combination. Many DAO attempts in the past have failed, but in this cycle, the Memecoin craze has proven that everything can be tokenized. DAOs themselves are cool — having a treasury to freely invest from, but adding a speculative token makes it even more interesting.
Daos.World Differentiation
Q3.1 - Julie:
Ever since daos.world launched on Base at the end of 2024, I've been keeping an eye on it. What made you decide to create a DAO launchpad? What sets DW apart from other launchpads? (Similar questions have been asked by the community as well.)
AzFlin:
Our points of differentiation are:
Innovative Tokenomics: On Base, we've designed a mechanism where staking DAO tokens earns $DWL.
DWL is a lottery token that can be burned to win whitelist spots in other projects.
I love this on-chain experiment, akin to the "food farms" gameplay during the DeFi summer of 2021.
In the future, we'll explore more DAO tokenomics models, such as $RWOK's "staking NFT to earn tokens" paradigm.
Customized Services: We provide tailored support for DAOs, such as early development of dedicated AI agents for DAOs (e.g., the three AI directors of 3 Beras Capital).
We work closely with teams, offering consultancy in development and marketing to help them reach their full potential.
Q3.2 - Tako User @coolhayley:
Recently, many projects using the "AI Agent+DAO Funding" model have been gaining popularity. What is the core competitive advantage of daos.world compared to other DAO platforms?
AzFlin:
Key advantages:
The DAO funds are completely under free control, and the treasury assets can be cross-chain invested in NFTs, DeFi, etc., as we only use a regular wallet to manage funds, not custom contracts.
A high revenue share is based on Base, with 40% of Uniswap V3 trading fees refunded to the DAO. On Solana, the Meteora dynamic pool can generate very high first-day fees, and creators can also share in them.
Deep support; we are not just a launch platform but also provide customized marketing and technical support to help projects maximize their potential.
Multi-chain Strategy
Q4.1 - Julie:
What was the initial reason for daos.world to choose Base? Curious how early support from @jessepollak helped you grow (e.g., the 176x increase in $FDREAM)?
AzFlin:
Choosing Base was a natural choice. We first considered EVM chains because compared to Solana, EVM makes it easier to build complex smart contracts. Base is the No.1 on the EVM chain in Degen culture, trading volume, and user mindset, so we naturally chose it.
Additionally, we were fortunate to be noticed early on by @jessepollak, who gave us great support, for which I am forever grateful! The conclusion is: as long as you create something good, the Base team will see it.
Q4.2 - Julie:
Expanding to Solana was a natural progression. What shortcomings of Base does Solana address? How is the current progress?
AzFlin:
Solana has attracted a large number of Degen users that Base did not have. Even though the market has cooled off now, Solana's Degen culture remains unmatched. Launching a project on Solana immediately catches people's attention; everyone holds SOL and is ready to go.
Meteora's technology is also excellent, and its fee structure is very advantageous for project teams. Although the market is currently down, new DAOs are slow to join, but we remain optimistic and will continue to build on Solana.
Q4.3 - Tako User@emily:
HypurrDAO provides liquidity support for daos.world in the Solana ecosystem through Meteora's dynamic pool, and daos.world also opens whitelist resources to HypurrDAO. Have you considered designing a two-way token incentive to achieve a cross-chain ecosystem loop in this collaboration?
AzFlin:
I don't fully understand this question. Yes, this is a two-chain cross-chain system, and I believe it benefits users on both sides.
View on Hot Topic Changes in the Industry
Q5.1 - Julie:
The cryptocurrency industry's trends change rapidly, with AI Meme and DAO Meme dominating at the end of last year, but recently the spotlight has shifted to the BNB chain. How do you view this market rotation? How does daos.world adjust its strategy to avoid merely chasing hot trends and instead build long-term value?
AzFlin:
Attention in this industry is as fleeting as a fish's. The speed at which the AI/DAO Meme cycle faded was astonishing. We also noticed the heat around BSC and may deploy over there in the future. EVM technology is easy to replicate, so expanding to other EVM chains is not difficult; the key is to have enough Degen users and transaction volume.
I don't always want to chase the latest trends; my goal is to build a project that can provide long-term value to the industry. The core idea of a DAO — community crowdfunding and pursuing common goals — is one of the foundations of this industry. We hope to help creators launch DAOs in the simplest and most seamless way possible and provide the best tools to operate them.
We have many relevant plans.
There are many DAO enthusiasts in this industry, and I would love to hear everyone's feedback: How can we make DAOs fun again? How can we increase participation? Many people don't like voting; how can we truly involve the community rather than just speculating on coins?
Q5.2 - Tako User@amandaeth:
Are there any circumstances that would make you stop operating this project? For example, inadequate funding, a proven unworkable mechanism?
AzFlin:
If I can't make money, no new DAOs join, or the market-product fit (PMF) is too low, I might pause maintenance, but I won't completely give up.
Q5.3 - Tako User@anymose:
Aside from the DAO space, what other race tracks do you think can exist in the crypto industry for the long term?
AzFlin:
DeFi comes first; this is the true product-market fit (PMF) of cryptocurrency.
Daos.World's social features
Q6.1 - Julie:
You previously mentioned wanting to add social features, such as a Troll Box and enhanced governance. How do you view the development of the social layer on daos.world?
AzFlin:
Currently, the social layer of daos.world mainly consists of Telegram, Discord, X, with each DAO having its own community.
In fact, these platforms are already quite good. Discord's emoji voting is great for quick decision-making. Unless there is a truly innovative feature, there is no need to reinvent the wheel.
A simple improvement would be to add a Troll Box on each DAO page to allow people to leave messages and increase interaction.
How to Participate in Daos.World
Q7.1 - Julie:
For users new to DAOs but interested in participating in daos.world, how can they get involved? What is the entry process for the average user? What risks should they be aware of?
AzFlin:
The simplest way to participate is to buy any DAO token on daos.world. But please do your own research (DYOR) as some tokens may even be below Net Asset Value (NAV), presenting undervaluation opportunities. For example, the NAV of $YT (YapTrade) is higher than its market cap.
Furthermore, participating in the whitelist of new projects can also be exciting. For example, on SOL, @Meet_Wally (a competitor of ChatGPT/Perplexity) is currently a good opportunity to get on the whitelist as the hype hasn't fully kicked in yet.
Q7.2 - Tako User@coolhayley:
As a founder, what key points do you think users need to pay attention to when participating in order to maximize gains and reduce risks?
AzFlin:
If you have made a lot of profit, remember to cash out. I have seen too many people being greedy and not withdrawing, only to end up losing. I have made this mistake myself as well.
Methods to reduce risk: Research the team, observe their social media, analyze their communication style; these little details can help you make judgments.
Q7.3 - Tako User@Fraral:
How can one get into your whitelist?
AzFlin:
The most direct way is to contribute on X (Twitter) — tweet promoting a new project, join their Telegram, or join my community. Any contribution will be seen and acknowledged.
Q7.4 - Tako User@aegis2293:
I heard @latenightonbase and @basejunkie are up to something with $NFA? The tax token for the NFT DAO? It sounds revolutionary for creators!
AzFlin:
That's right, stay tuned.
Vision and Methodology
Q8.1 - Julie:
You mentioned wanting to focus on long-term development, what is the roadmap for daos.world for the next two quarters? Will it still be a launchpad in two years, or will it evolve into something bigger? What is the ultimate goal?
AzFlin:
Next two quarters:
Expand to more high-activity EVM chains
Optimize launch mechanism
Introduce more innovative DAOs
Strengthen community building for existing DAOs
Next two years:
To be honest, I haven't thought that far ahead yet. The primary goal is to build the best DAO launch platform and provide all the tools needed for DAOs (treasury management, governance, voting, etc.). We will stay up to date with industry trends and explore any opportunities in the DAO space.
Ultimate goal:
Get more people (including non-crypto users) involved in DAOs, showcasing the power of decentralized governance and tokenization.
Q8.2 - Julie:
You mentioned "Just write code, just launch," and some DAOs can go live in a few weeks. This rapid iterative approach is rare in the crypto industry (many projects get stuck in endless development cycles). How do you manage to be both fast and stable? How do you decide which features must go live and which can be added later?
AzFlin:
Speed is key. Speed determines success. I often tell people that the crypto industry changes rapidly, and many teams move too slowly. Everyone needs to step up, act faster, and not get bogged down by details. Release the most basic version first, allowing the product to face users as soon as possible.
I have no secrets; it's just hard work, aiming to launch with the minimum viable product (MVP). Additionally, testing is crucial. As long as the tests pass, I will not hesitate to release.
Q8.3 - Tako User@SOLO_eva:
daos.world What are the plans for future product iteration and ecosystem expansion?
AzFlin:
We will expand to more chains, optimize the launch mechanism (such as the upcoming tax token), and enhance DAO tools.
Q8.4 - Tako User@JulianAllen:
daos.world has created a wealth effect through a whitelist mechanism, but as DWL is a token without market value, how can we prevent users from losing interest after short-term gains? In the future, will DWL have more utility scenarios?
AzFlin:
Currently, $DWL is mainly a lottery whitelist token and will also be used for community rewards. I have always emphasized that it has no intrinsic market value, but I am considering how to make it more impactful.
Entrepreneurship Insights and Lessons
Q9.1 - Julie:
Every founder's journey is filled with challenges and learning moments. What obstacles have you encountered in building daos.world? Have there been any failures or hacks that taught you valuable lessons?
AzFlin:
I have learned more in the past few months than in the past few years. Just to share a few points:
Cashing out at the right time is key, as the success and hype in the crypto industry are fleeting. As a founder, you need to secure your financial well-being first. If you don't sell, others will not hesitate to sell on top of you, leaving you with nothing. We could have cashed out more during the initial hype phase.
Deciding whom to whitelist for allocation is tricky. It's best to have clear requirements in advance (such as tweeting, providing support), as many people who receive whitelist allocation disappear.
Talent is hard to find; there are few truly capable individuals in this industry. If you find one, cherish them and collaborate as much as possible.
Networking is crucial, and everything accumulates. Many supporters of daos.world are people I have collaborated with in the past.
Maintaining price stability is extremely difficult now with fierce competition, you must perform at the top 5% level just to barely maintain it. Continuous introduction of new users and buying pressure is needed.
Q9.2 - @Mable Jiang:
How do you deal with the community's pressure on the coin price? And the developer's moral blackmail of "should not do certain things otherwise it's a rug"? Public development is challenging; I'd like to hear your thoughts.
AzFlin:
I basically ignore comments about the coin price, I'm used to dealing with FUD. Public development is indeed difficult, but that's part of the game.
Q9.3 - Tako User@coolhayley:
How was the early team formed?
AzFlin:
They were all friends or partners I knew from before.
Work-Life Balance
Q10.1 - Julie:
Tako initially advocated for "High Tech, High Life." Your development pace must be very demanding physically and mentally. How do you maintain balance to avoid burnout?
AzFlin:
daos.world when it first launched, I completely gave up a healthy lifestyle, worked non-stop, sometimes anxious to the point of insomnia, and even started smoking again. This state is not sustainable, but that period was the most exciting days of my life — facing new challenges and opportunities every day.
I'm still very busy now (especially with some real-life matters), but I'm more composed. Balance must be maintained, or else burnout will happen.
Q10.2 - Tako User@shea:
When under a lot of pressure, besides smoking, are there any other ways to relieve stress? Such as exercise?
AzFlin:
I used to exercise regularly, but have been doing it less lately. I plan to start again!
Q10.3 - Tako User@Ekko:
How do you currently balance remote and on-site work?
AzFlin:
It's all about working hard every day and not wasting time—although I still often watch shows and chill at night, haha.
Community Q&A
Q11.1 - Tako User@web3zy8:
You mentioned that you would stick to daos.world, but many projects on the platform are currently performing poorly, supporters and users are drained, and the coin price has dropped by 99%. What are your thoughts? Will you compensate loyal users?
AzFlin:
I understand everyone's frustration. Indeed, many people have lost money, but many have also made gains. This is the nature of the cyclical rotation in the industry. All DAOs are still under development, and many will have a strong comeback. For example, AISTR is about to launch bonds, and RWOK is becoming the core treasury of the Remilia ecosystem. These DAOs are all backed by hard assets, and at the very least, funds will be returned to holders upon maturity.
Q11.2 - Tako User@Fraral:
What is your view on the social track? Why did you accept Tako's invitation?
AzFlin:
Two reasons: 1) I like to talk about myself; 2) Vitalik has also been here.
Q11.3 - Tako User@jacktod1:
daos.world has enabled many people to earn hundreds of times (including me). Although I haven't sold most of the tokens, I haven't lost either. The early community atmosphere was the best, with many people willing to contribute, feeling the charm of the platform and AZ. AZ is one of the most approachable founders I have ever seen.
Platform development inevitably encounters setbacks, divisions, FUD, especially when the DWL rules were introduced. The team's original intention was fairness, but lack of adequate communication led to continuous FUD. In hindsight, at that time, AI tokens were the hottest, and most coins eventually plummeted. So, FUD + unclear rules + lack of liquidity provision + too many projects leading to fund dispersion formed a vicious cycle.
I think this is market-driven, but community operations also have a responsibility. I have always respected the daos.world team, AZ, Mew, Americanspirit; they are really great.
What I most hope to see is different developers collaborating on the same platform, complementing each other's resources.
AzFlin:
Thank you for the feedback, Jack. You are one of the earliest OG supporters, and I will always remember that!
Q11.4 - Tako User@flyawei:
I'm fed up with PVP (Player-vs-Player). Just the day before yesterday, a dao.fun project was rug pulled right after launch. Hopefully, our DAO project can address this pain point.
AzFlin:
The current market is very challenging, purely PVP mode. To keep a project hot, you need a whitelist followed by new buyers to take over. But it's hard to find new funds now. A real market fit must be found.
Q11.5 - Tako User@shea:
The whitelist mechanism of daos.world allows users to earn 15-77x returns. How is such high yield designed? How to ensure sustainability?
AzFlin:
This was not designed by us but determined by the initial presale price and market demand. No one can guarantee such a return rate; everything depends on market supply and demand.
Q11.6 - Tako User@shea:
daos.world has "anti-snipe" technology to protect DWL holders. Will more innovative technologies be introduced in the future to optimize the platform?
AzFlin:
Yes. For example, we may introduce "tax tokens" for certain DAOs, allowing creators to earn passive income based on transaction volume. Although tax mechanisms have been unpopular in the past, they can create a positive feedback loop, fairly rewarding creators.
We are designing this mechanism for the NFT DAO of @latenightonbase and @basejunkie ($NFA).
This article is contributed and does not represent the views of BlockBeats.
猜你喜歡
穩定幣驅動全球B2B支付革新,如何打破工作流程瓶頸釋放兆市場潛力?
5月2日關鍵市場資訊差,一定要看! |Alpha早報
這些新創公司正在無需資料中心的情況下建立先進AI模型
CEX與Wallet之後,OKX入局支付
RWA永續產品危機:為什麼GLP模式註定撐不住RWA永續?
科學平權運動:DeSci的萬億美元知識經濟重建革命
Sentient深度研報:獲8,500萬美元融資,建置去中心化AGI新範式
專訪Virtuals聯創empty:AI 創業不需要大量資金,Crypto是答案之一
今年 2 月,Base 生態中的 AI 協議 Virtuals 宣布跨鏈至 Solana,然而加密市場隨後進入流動性緊縮期,AI Agent 板塊從人聲鼎沸轉為低迷,Virtuals 生態也陷入一段蟄伏期。
三月初,BlockBeats 對 Virtuals 共同創辦人 empty 進行了一次專訪。彼時,團隊尚未推出如今被廣泛討論的 Genesis Launch 機制,但已在內部持續探索如何透過機制設計激活舊資產、提高用戶參與度,並重構代幣發行與融資路徑。那是一個市場尚未復甦、生態尚處冷啟動階段的時間點,Virtuals 團隊卻沒有停下腳步,而是在努力尋找新的產品方向和敘事突破口。
兩個月過去,AI Agent 板塊重新升溫,Virtuals 代幣反彈超 150%,Genesis 機製成為帶動生態回暖的重要觸發器。從積分獲取規則的動態調整,到專案參與熱度的持續上升,再到「新代幣帶老代幣」的機制閉環,Virtuals 逐漸走出寒冬,並再次站上討論焦點。
值得注意的是,Virtuals 的 Genesis 機制與近期 Binance 推出的 Alpha 積分系統有一些相似之處,評估用戶在 Alpha 和幣安錢包生態系統內的參與度,決定用戶 Alpha 代幣空投的資格。用戶可透過持倉、交易等方式獲得積分,積分越高,參與新項目的機會越大。透過積分系統篩選使用者、分配資源,專案方能夠更有效地激勵社群參與,提升專案的公平性和透明度。 Virtuals 和 Binance 的探索,或許預示著加密融資的新趨勢正在形成。
回看這次對話,empty 在專訪中所展現出的思路與判斷,正在一步步顯現其前瞻性,這不僅是一場圍繞打新機制的訪談,更是一次關於“資產驅動型 AI 協議”的路徑構建與底層邏輯的深度討論。
BlockBeats:可以簡單分享一下最近團隊主要在忙些什麼?
empty:目前我們的工作重點主要有兩個部分。第一部分,我們希望將 Virtuals 打造成一個類似「華爾街」的代理人(Agent)服務平台。設想一下,如果你是專注於 Agent 或 Agent 團隊建立的創業者,從融資、發幣到流動性退出,整個流程都需要係統性的支援。我們希望為真正專注於 Agent 和 AI 研發的團隊,提供這一整套服務體系,讓他們可以把精力集中在底層能力的開發上,而不用為其他環節分心。這一塊的工作其實也包括了與散戶買賣相關的內容,後面可以再詳細展開。
第二部分,我們正在深入推進 AI 相關的佈局。我們的願景是建立一個 AI 社會,希望每個 Agent 都能聚焦自身優勢,同時透過彼此之間的協作,實現更大的價值。因此,最近我們發布了一個新的標準——ACP(Agent Communication Protocol),目的是讓不同的 Agent 能夠相互互動、協作,共同推動各自的業務目標。這是目前我們主要在推進的兩大方向。
BlockBeats:可以再展開說說嗎?
empty:在我看來,其實我們面對的客戶群可以分為三類:第一類是專注於開發 Agent 的團隊;第二類是投資者,包括散戶、基金等各種投資機構;第三類則是 C 端用戶,也就是最終使用 Agent 產品的個人用戶。
不過,我們主要的精力其實是放在前兩大類──也就是團隊和投資人。對於 C 端用戶這一塊,我們並不打算直接介入,而是希望各個 Agent 團隊能夠自己解決 C 端市場的拓展問題。
此外,我們也認為,Agent 與 Agent 之間的交互作用應該成為一個核心模式。簡單來說,就是未來的服務更多應該是由一個 Agent 銷售或提供給另一個 Agent,而不是單純賣給人類使用者。因此,在團隊的 BD 工作中,我們也積極幫助現有的 AI 團隊尋找這樣的客戶和合作機會。
BlockBeats:大概有一些什麼具體案例呢?
empty:「華爾街」說白了就是圍繞資本運作體系的建設,假設你是一個技術團隊,想要融資,傳統路徑是去找 VC 募資,拿到資金後開始發展。如果專案做得不錯,接下來可能會考慮進入二級市場,例如在紐約證券交易所上市,或是在 Binance 這樣的交易所上幣,實現流動性退出。
我們希望把這一整套流程打通-從早期融資,到專案開發過程中對資金的靈活使用需求,再到最終二級市場的流動性退出,全部覆蓋和完善,這是我們希望補齊的一條完整鏈條。
而這一部分的工作和 ACP(Agent Communication Protocol)是不同的,ACP 更多是關於 Agent 與 Agent 之間交互標準的製定,不直接涉及資本運作系統。
BlockBeats:它和現在 Virtuals 的這個 Launchpad 有什麼差別呢?資金也是從 C 端來是嗎?
empty:其實現在你在 Virtuals 上發幣,如果沒有真正融到資金,那就只是發了一個幣而已,實際是融不到錢的。我們目前能提供的服務,是透過設定買賣時的交易稅機制,從中提取一部分稅收回饋給創業者,希望這部分能成為他們的現金流來源。
不過,問題其實還分成兩塊。第一是如何真正幫助團隊完成融資,這個問題目前我們還沒有徹底解決。第二是關於目前專案發行模式本身存在的結構性問題。簡單來說,現在的版本有點像過去 Pumpfun 那種模式——也就是當專案剛上線時,部分籌碼就被外賣給了外部投資人。但現實是,目前整個市場上存在著太多機構集團和「狙擊手」。
當一個真正優秀的專案一發幣,還沒真正觸達普通散戶,就已經被機構在極高估值時搶購了。等到散戶能夠接觸到時,往往價格已經偏高,專案品質也可能變差,整個價值發行體係被扭曲。
針對這個問題,我們希望探索一種新的發幣和融資模式,目的是讓專案方的籌碼既不是死死握在自己手裡,也不是優先流向英文圈的大機構,而是能夠真正留給那些相信專案、願意長期支持專案的普通投資者手中。我們正在思考該如何設計這樣一個新的發行機制,來解決這個根本問題。
BlockBeats:新模式的具體想法會是什麼樣子呢?
empty:關於資金這一塊,其實我們目前還沒有完全想透。現階段來看,最直接的方式還是去找 VC 融資,或是採取公開預售等形式進行資金募集。不過說實話,我個人對傳統的公開預售模式並不是特別認同。
在「公平發售」這件事上,我們正在嘗試換一個角度來思考-希望能從「reputation」出發,重新設計機制。
具體來說,就是如果你對整個 Virtuals 生態有貢獻,例如早期參與、提供支持或建設,那麼你就可以在後續購買優質代幣時享有更高的優先權。透過這種方式,我們希望把資源更多留給真正支持生態發展的用戶,而不是由短期套利的人主導。
BlockBeats:您會不會考慮採用類似之前 Fjord Foundry 推出的 LBP 模式,或者像 Daos.fun 那種採用白名單機制的模式。這些模式在某種程度上,和您剛才提到的「對生態有貢獻的人享有優先權」的想法是有些相似的。不過,這類做法後來也引發了一些爭議,例如白名單內部操作、分配不公等問題。 Virtuals 在設計時會考慮借鏡這些模式的優點,或有針對性地規避類似的問題嗎?
empty:我認為白名單機制最大的問題在於,白名單的選擇權掌握在專案方手中。這和「老鼠倉」行為非常相似。專案方可以選擇將白名單名額分配給自己人或身邊的朋友,導致最終的籌碼仍然掌握在少數人手中。
我們希望做的,依然是類似白名單的機制,但不同的是,白名單的獲取權應基於一個公開透明的規則體系,而不是由項目方單方面決定。只有這樣,才能真正做到公平分配,避免內幕操作的問題。
我認為在今天這個 AI 時代,很多時候創業並不需要大量資金。我常跟團隊強調,你們應該優先考慮自力更生,例如透過組成社區,而不是一開始就想著去融資。因為一旦融資,實際上就等於背負了負債。
我們更希望從 Training Fee的角度去看待早期發展路徑。也就是說,專案可以選擇直接發幣,透過交易稅所帶來的現金流,支持日常營運。這樣一來,專案可以在公開建設的過程中獲得初步資金,而不是依賴外部投資。如果專案做大了,自然也會有機會透過二級市場流動性退出。
當然最理想的情況是,專案本身能夠有穩定的現金流來源,這樣甚至連自己的幣都無需拋售,這才是真正健康可持續的狀態。
我自己也常在和團隊交流時分享這種思路,很有意思的是,那些真正抱著「搞快錢」心態的項目,一聽到這種機制就失去了興趣。他們會覺得,在這種模式下,既無法操作老鼠倉,也很難短期套利,於是很快就選擇離開。
但從我們的角度來看,這其實反而是個很好的篩選機制。透過這種方式,理念不同的專案自然會被過濾出去,最後留下的,都是那些願意真正建立、和我們價值觀契合的團隊,一起把事情做起來。
BlockBeats:這個理念可以發展出一些能夠創造收益的 AI agent。
empty:我覺得這是很有必要的。坦白說,放眼今天的市場,真正擁有穩定現金流的產品幾乎鳳毛麟角,但我認為這並不意味著我們應該停止嘗試。事實上,我們每天在對接的團隊中,有至少一半以上的人依然懷抱著長遠的願景。很多時候,他們甚至已經提前向我們提供了 VC 階段的資金支持,或表達了強烈的合作意願。
其實對他們來說想要去收穫一個很好的社區,因為社區可以給他們的產品做更好的回饋,這才是他們真正的目的。這樣聽起來有一點匪夷所思,但其實真的有很多這樣的團隊,而那種團隊的是我們真的想扶持的團隊。
BlockBeats:您剛才提到的這套「AI 華爾街」的產品體系-從融資、發行到退出,建構的是一整套完整的流程。這套機制是否更多是為了激勵那些有意願發幣的團隊?還是說,它在設計上也考慮瞭如何更好地支持那些希望透過產品本身的現金流來發展的團隊?這兩類團隊在您這套體系中會不會被區別對待,或者說有什麼機制設計能讓不同路徑的創業者都能被合理支持?
empty:是的,我們 BD 的核心職責其實就是去鼓勵團隊發幣。說得直接一點,就是引導他們思考發幣的可能性和意義。所以團隊最常問的問題就是:「為什麼要發幣?」這時我們需要採取不同的方式和角度,去幫助他們理解背後的價值邏輯。當然如果最終判斷不適合,我們也不會強迫他們推進。
不過我們觀察到一個非常明顯的趨勢,傳統的融資路徑已經越來越難走通了。過去那種融資做大,發幣上所的模式已經逐漸失效。面對這樣的現實,很多團隊都陷入了尷尬的境地。而我們希望能從鏈上和加密的視角,提供一套不同的解決方案,讓他們找到新的發展路徑。
BlockBeats:明白,我剛才其實想表達的是,您剛剛也提到,傳統的 AI 模式在很大程度上仍然依賴「燒錢」競爭。但在 DeepSeek 出現之後,市場上一些資金體積較小的團隊或投資人開始重新燃起了信心,躍躍欲試地進入這個領域。您怎麼看待這種現象?這會不會對目前正在做 AI 基礎研發,或是 AI 應用層開發的團隊產生一定的影響?
empty:對,我覺得先不談 DeepSeek,從傳統角度來看,其實到目前為止,AI 領域真正賺錢的只有英偉達,其他幾乎所有玩家都還沒有實現盈利。所以其實沒有人真正享受了這個商業模式的成果,大家也仍在探索如何面對 C 端打造真正有產出的應用。
沒有哪個領域像幣圈一樣能如此快速獲得社群回饋。你一發幣,用戶就會主動去讀白皮書的每一個字,試試你產品的每個功能。
當然,這套機制並不適合所有人。例如有些 Agent 產品偏 Web2,對於幣圈用戶而言,可能感知不到其價值。因此,我也會鼓勵做 Agent 的團隊在 Virtuals 生態中認真思考,如何真正將 Crypto 作為自身產品的差異化要素加以運用與設計。
BlockBeats:這點我特別認同,在 Crypto 這個領域 AI 的迭代速度確實非常快,但這群用戶給予的回饋,真的是代表真實的市場需求嗎?或者說這些回饋是否真的符合更大眾化、更具規模性的需求?
empty:我覺得很多時候產品本身不應該是強行推廣給不適合的使用者群體。例如 AIXBT 最成功的一點就在於,它的用戶本身就是那群炒作他人內容的人,所以他們的使用行為是非常自然的,並不覺得是在被迫使用一個無聊的產品。 mass adoption 這個概念已經講了很多年,大家可能早就該放棄這個執念了。我們不如就認了,把東西賣給幣圈的人就好了。
BlockBeats:AI Agent 與 AI Agent 所對應的代幣之間,究竟應該是什麼樣的動態關係?
empty:對,我覺得這裡可以分成兩個核心點。首先其實不是在投資某個具體的 AI Agent,而是在投資背後經營這個 Agent 的團隊。你應該把它理解為一種更接近創投的思路:你投的是這個人,而不是他目前正在做的產品。因為產品本身是可以快速變化的,可能一個月後團隊會發現方向不對,立即調整。所以,這裡的「幣」本質上代表的是對團隊的信任,而不是某個特定 Agent 本身。
第二則是期望一旦某個 Agent 產品做出來後,未來它能真正產生現金流,或者有實際的使用場景(utility),從而讓對應的代幣具備賦能效應。
BlockBeats:您覺得有哪些賦能方式是目前還沒看到的,但未來可能出現、值得期待的?
empty:其實主要有兩塊,第一是比較常見的那種你要使用我的產品,就必須付費,或者使用代幣支付,從而間接實現對代幣的「軟銷毀」或消耗。
但我覺得更有趣的賦能方式,其實是在獲客成本的角度思考。也就是說,你希望你的用戶同時也是你的投資者,這樣他們就有動機去主動幫你推廣、吸引更多用戶。
BlockBeats:那基於這些觀點,您怎麼看 ai16z,在專案設計和代幣機制方面,似乎整體表現並不太樂觀?
empty:從一個很純粹的投資角度來看,撇開我們與他們之間的關係,其實很簡單。他們現在做的事情,對代幣本身沒有任何賦能。從開源的角度來看,一個開源模型本身是無法直接賦能代幣的。
但它仍然有價值的原因在於,它像一個期權(call option),也就是說,如果有一天他們突然決定要做一些事情,比如推出一個 launchpad,那麼那些提前知道、提前參與的人,可能會因此受益。
開發者未來確實有可能會使用他們的 Launchpad,只有在那一刻,代幣才會真正產生賦能。這是目前最大的一個問號——如果這個模式真的跑得通,我認為確實會非常強大,因為他們的確觸達了大量開發者。
但我個人還是有很多疑問。例如即使我是使用 Eliza 的開發者,也不代表我一定會選擇在他們的 Launchpad 上發幣。我會貨比三家,會比較。而且,做一個 Launchpad 和做一個開源框架,所需的產品能力和社群運作能力是完全不同的,這是另一個重要的不確定性。
BlockBeats:這種不同是體現在什麼地方呢?
empty:在 Virtuals 上我們幾乎每天都在處理客服相關的問題,只要有任何一個團隊在我們平台上發生 rug,即使與我們沒有直接關係,用戶也會第一時間來找我們投訴。
這時我們就必須出面安撫用戶,並思考如何降低 rug 的整體風險。一旦有團隊因為自己的代幣設計錯誤或技術失誤而被駭客攻擊、資產被盜,我們往往需要自掏腰包,確保他們的社群至少能拿回一點資金,以便專案能夠重新開始。這些項目方可能在技術上很強,但未必擅長代幣發行,結果因操作失誤被攻擊導致資產損失。只要涉及「被欺騙」相關的問題,對我們來說就已經是非常麻煩的事了,做這些工作跟做交易所的客服沒有太大差別。
另一方面,做 BD 也非常困難。優秀的團隊手上有很多選擇,他們可以選擇在 Pumpfun 或交易所上發幣,為什麼他們要來找我們,那這背後必須要有一整套支援體系,包括融資支援、技術協助、市場推廣等,每個環節都不能出問題。
BlockBeats:那我們就繼續沿著這個話題聊聊 Virtuals 目前的 Launchpad 業務。有一些社群成員在 Twitter 上統計了 Virtuals Launchpad 的整體獲利狀況,確實目前看起來獲利的項目比較少。接下來 Launchpad 還會是 Virtuals 的主要業務區嗎?還是說,未來的重心會逐漸轉向您剛才提到的「AI 華爾街」這條路徑?
empty:其實這兩塊本質上是一件事,是一整套體系的一部分,所以我們必須繼續推進。市場的波動是很正常的,我們始終要堅持的一點是:非常清楚地認識到我們的核心客戶是誰。我一直強調我們的客戶只有兩類——團隊。所以市場行情的好壞對我們來說並不是最重要的,關鍵是在每一個關鍵節點上,對於一個團隊來說,發幣的最佳選擇是否依然是我們 Virtuals。
BlockBeats:您會不會擔心「Crypto + AI」或「Crypto AI Agent」這一類敘事已經過去了?如果未來還有一輪多頭市場,您是否認為市場炒作的焦點可能已經不再是這些方向了?
empty:有可能啊,我覺得 it is what it is,這確實是有可能發生的,但這也屬於我們無法控制的範圍。不過如果你問我,在所有可能的趨勢中,哪個賽道更有機會長期保持領先,我仍然認為是 AI。從一個打德撲的角度來看,它仍然是最優選擇。
而且我們團隊的技術架構和底層能力其實早已搭建完成了,現在只是順勢而為而已。更重要的是,我們本身真的熱愛這件事,帶著好奇心去做這件事。每天早上醒來就有驅動力去研究最新的技術,這種狀態本身就挺讓人滿足的,對吧?
很多時候,大家不應該只看產品本身。實際上很多優秀的團隊,他們的基因決定了他們有在規則中勝出的能力——他們可能過去在做派盤交易時,每筆規模就是上百萬的操作,而這些團隊的 CEO,一年的薪資可能就有 100 萬美金。如果他們願意出來單幹項目,從天使投資或 VC 的視角來看,這本質上是用一個很划算的價格買到一個高品質的團隊。
更何況這些資產是 liquid 的,不是鎖倉狀態。如果你當下不急著用錢,完全可以在早期階段買進一些優秀團隊的代幣,靜靜等待他們去創造一些奇蹟,基本上就是這樣一個邏輯。