Fish God Dialogue: Personal Experience of 12,000 ETH Theft and the Role of AI in Web3
Original Title: "Wu Discusses with Divine Fish: First Disclosure of 12,000 ETH Phishing Process and Security Advice to Startup Teams"
Original Source: Wu Blockchain
This discussion started from the Bybit $1.5 billion hack incident and focused on the security vulnerabilities of multi-signature wallets (such as Safe) and their solutions. Divine Fish pointed out that there are weak links in the infrastructure of multi-signature wallets, such as the frontend, hardware, and browser, especially regarding frontend tampering and blind signing issues. These vulnerabilities lead to inconsistencies between transaction intent and actual operation, making them easy targets for hackers. As a solution, he proposed temporary measures like domain whitelisting, transaction parsing plugins, and advocated for an end-to-end closed-loop risk control system. He suggested combining AI with third-party verification to enhance security.
Additionally, Divine Fish shared for the first time his experience of being phished for 12,000 ETH last year, emphasizing the risk of hardware wallet blind signing. He called for the industry to adopt a layered and decentralized architecture with a zero-trust framework and to strengthen security culture. He also mentioned that in the face of nation-state-level cyber attacks, the industry needs to address the challenges through technical iterations and improved security awareness. Lastly, Divine Fish discussed the future prospects of the combination of AI and Crypto, believing that AI Agents may play a significant role in blockchain networks, driving industry innovation.
The audio transcript was generated by GPT and may contain errors. Please listen to the full podcast:
Xiaoyuzhou: https://www.xiaoyuzhoufm.com/episodes/67bf221605a90dfd0d0c7332
YouTube: https://youtu.be/85Ogctbmito
Reflecting on Multi-Sig Infrastructure Vulnerabilities, Proposing Temporary Solutions Such as Domain Whitelisting and Transaction Parsing Plugins, and Advocating for End-to-End Closed-Loop Risk Control
Colin: Please share your thoughts on the Bybit incident and what notable points you think are worth exploring.
Divine Fish: This incident is actually a very typical case. Because the current industry solution for multi-signature wallets requires reliance on many infrastructures and intermediate services developed by multiple parties. Traditionally, this decentralization and distribution of responsibilities were seen as less prone to issues. However, the problem now is that the interactions between these applications developed by multiple parties and the hardware technologies have some bugs and potential weak points. This has led to a series of recent high-profile security incidents, facing threats from nation-state-level hacking forces.
The root of this issue is that I have been reflecting on this issue since I was attacked in September last year. Around November, we also contacted various hardware manufacturers and realized that blind signing is a very serious issue. The connection from the frontend to the desktop plugin to the hardware is also easily tampered with, and we realized this is the weakest point. At that time, we immediately contacted various companies such as OneKey and Ledger to discuss some solutions.
During this process, we found some issues. Each company had some solutions, but it was very difficult to ultimately implement a solution that could withstand attacks. As someone mentioned earlier, it might take up to half a year to iterate properly. Ledger actually implemented a comprehensive solution because of their contracts, requiring passive updates, which also had a very long cycle. The key is how the entire process can effectively patch vulnerabilities or bugs that arise from interactions across the chain.
Currently, there is a lack of an end-to-end solution in the market. Right now, it's a combination of various companies, but during the combination process, there may be unexpected outcomes, providing opportunities for hackers. During this process, we ourselves actually developed some internal tools and demos.
First, we created a whitelist for domain access to ensure that websites opened on the browser are safe and have not been tampered with, preventing typical phishing attacks, especially things like entering the wrong URL or random webpage redirection. Secondly, we developed a transaction parsing plugin that can run on mobile devices. Some hardware wallets communicate with the plugin or Safe via QR codes, so we verify if the content transmitted via the QR code has been tampered with and then validate the parsed content on the hardware wallet. We created some small plugins, but it felt too fragmented in practice, and the end-to-end process was not fully connected, with too many steps involved. So, after this incident, we are continuing to reflect on our approach.
A critical point is that our industry has grown significantly, with trillions of dollars at stake, inevitably attracting high-profile hacker teams. During this process, as mentioned by our team members, you need to dig deep both horizontally and vertically. However, because the industry is developing rapidly and iterating quickly, businesses often tend to overlook this series of potential risks in order to conduct operations.
Therefore, in this process, our current idea or what we are working on is that, since we have always managed various private keys (hardware, software, on-chain private keys) and accumulated a series of risk management capabilities, including some risk control engines. So, in scenarios typical of projects like Safe, we hope to act as custodians, holding a private key. With this private key, we have a completely independent software and hardware environment, coupled with our series of risk control engines for analysis. Simultaneously, we are introducing our customized series of auditing solutions, incorporating automated AI analysis, followed by manual audits, and then adding some black and white lists, and even some advanced contract parameter controls.
This is actually something we have been using throughout the DeFi process, but we haven't completely connected it to productization. Through this decentralized form, some private keys are not held entirely by one team, but by some external third party independently, and then this thing can only be controlled if it is closed end-to-end. This is currently our idea, and indeed this is how we operate in the on-chain DeFi process because EOA is particularly vulnerable to phishing attacks. Moving to multi-sig faces issues similar to Bybit. We have a particularly long chain of events and various risks.
Our current thinking and solution is that we are introducing an independent third party, and then this independent third party introduces its completely independent tech stack and hardware-software integrated solution, including a risk control engine, and even adding some AI capabilities, to complete a closed-loop process from transaction initiation and analysis, risk control review, to coordinating the signing process, and then trying to avoid the very patient, long-term, nation-state-level hacker infiltration attacks.
Blind Signing Risk Emphasized in Phishing Attack on DeFi Whale, AI and Third-Party Verification Integration Needed
Colin: You mentioned the issue of EOA phishing earlier. We also know that last year, some of your assets were inadvertently phished. Can you recall the specific situation at that time and whether the funds were ultimately transferred by North Korean hackers?
DeFi Whale: My background at the time was that a project was airdropping tokens, and my physical condition was not ideal at that time, and I was a bit distracted, so I clicked on a wrong link, which turned out to be a malicious link. However, the problem was that once the funds reached the hardware wallet side, we had a third-party risk control mechanism for domain names and DNS resolution. Unfortunately, that risk control mechanism was bypassed, and our risk control measures did not catch it. After it was bypassed, I was a bit distracted and did not check carefully. When it reached the hardware wallet side, because it was blind signing on the hardware wallet side, after I confirmed the transaction, I felt something was wrong and immediately checked, only to discover that something was amiss, and then the rest is history. After this incident, we went to address the issue of blind signing on hardware wallets. During this process, during last year's National Day, we held meetings with OneKey and others and found that the problem was not easy to solve. Because EOA is vulnerable to phishing attacks, especially targeted attacks.
So we turned to using Safe for multi-signature transactions. During the multi-signature process, I found that this issue somehow became more serious because almost every transaction was blind signed, and we had to create many small tools to try to address these issues. Ultimately, we still need a holistic solution. Our hardware wallet needs to achieve the goal of software and hardware integration because the hardware's UI is indeed the final checkpoint. We also need to introduce some independent third parties that can prevent interception, alerts, and handling when a person's state is not right in this process. This is also one of the reasons why we have started to iterate and attempt to productize in this area.
Reasons for the Absence of the "Altcoin Season": Lack of Drive and Anticipation of National Reserve Decisions Driving Market Development
Colin: In addition, last year, you were the first to raise the issue of the absence of an "altcoin season." There was a lot of debate, with some people, including many prominent figures, criticizing and insisting that there must be an "altcoin season," while others acknowledged it. Then, in December of last year, the "altcoin season" indeed happened very briefly. At that time, you might have felt that the "altcoin season" was emerging, stating that it had begun.
However, not long after, it seems that, as you originally mentioned, in this cycle, the "altcoin season" was almost non-existent. Of course, we do not make predictions. Regarding short-term forecasts, as someone said before, only God knows. But do you have any new thoughts now? Do you think that in this cycle, the "altcoin season" is almost impossible to occur because it mainly revolves around the Bitcoin price cycle? Also, do you not think that the so-called bull market has ended or is about to transition into a bear market phase?
Whale: My current feeling is that over the past two to three years, apart from some minor emotionally driven hot topics, the entire industry still lacks a clear landing application and real demand-driven scenarios, as it was very evident in 2020 and 2021. I believe this is the fundamental issue. Due to the lack of intrinsic drive, there will not be new truly valuable application assets emerging.
On the other hand, in this cycle, a large number of players actually stayed in the traditional US stock market. They traded through ETF allocations, using platforms like Robinhood. They do not truly own cryptocurrency assets. Therefore, a lot of money did not stay within the crypto field, and the anticipated overflow effect did not occur, where funds would spread from Bitcoin and Ethereum to other currencies. With these two factors combined, for some reason, perhaps even the "altcoin season" was driven by short-term sentiment and only lasted a few weeks, without a widespread breakout. At the moment, I almost maintain my previous judgment.
My view for this year, or my expectation for the market, is that a market development milestone may be reached in the second half of this year, possibly between June and October. As the situation regarding the US and other national reserve decisions becomes clearer and is resolved, the industry or market may see a significant influx of new funds. However, currently, in the short to medium term, we may not be able to resolve issues at the application layer. There doesn't seem to be a frenzy of inflow in terms of on-chain and off-chain funds. So, I am more hopeful for the second half of the year.
I'm not making a judgment on this matter today, but it may ultimately depend on whether the Reserve-related issue in the United States will have any results this year. If there are no results, the market may come to an end. At this moment, we feel that the probability of passage is still relatively high, but it's hard to say for sure, so our expectations are more focused on the second half of the year. (This Space was posted on February 25th, and in March, Trump signed an executive order on Bitcoin Reserve)
Summary of Historical Hacks: Dealing with Nation-State Hackers Requires Layered Decentralization, Zero Trust Architecture, and Security Culture
Colin: Well, Whale, you've been in the crypto space for a long time. I joined around 2017. There have been countless theft incidents in the crypto world's history, all very thrilling. Of course, the amount stolen in this Bybit hack set a new record, but Bybit itself is profitable enough to be able to fully reimburse users. In your memory, including the early days, what are the most memorable theft experiences you've had, and which ones are most worth sharing?
Whale: I believe that the cat-and-mouse game has always been escalating, especially in the early days when the attack methods were very primitive. We in the industry must realize that we are up against a nation-state level of force. These are not ordinary hackers; they are organized, sometimes intensively trained from the age of ten, using various methods similar to attacking core infrastructure to infiltrate our enterprises internally. They will even challenge us on a human level. It is essential for everyone to clearly recognize that we are facing such adversaries. In this process, there will be complacency, and human nature will pose some challenges. Ultimately, we must adopt adequate means and methods to withstand these threats.
In the history of the Internet, Cobo is probably one of the earliest Chinese-background companies to adopt the Zero Trust model and security culture. We adopted this methodology early on because only this method has been validated to resist penetration attempts from nation-state actors. Therefore, around 2018 and 2019, we began implementing Zero Trust transformation internally, where all our internal services and all employees' computers and phones had to install various security measures. Once we realized this, we had to employ this solution and ensure that all our systems are in a minimal trust state.
Simultaneously, the most critical asset for us is the private key, so we must introduce a layered, decentralized, and distributed mindset. What does layering mean? We must disperse our wallets significantly. I previously shared my theory of the four wallets on a personal level. But at an institutional level, we should at least have a three-tier wallet structure—hot, warm, cold—with each layer having its characteristics, and possibly blacklists and whitelists, as well as a series of processes, including time delays. Often, for the sake of efficiency, especially in this rapidly developing industry, we tend to compromise security for efficiency. However, mandatory time delays can significantly reduce your security risks. Especially at the level of cold and warm wallets, we must layer them and set different security risks for each layer, establish an auditing system and processes to mitigate these systemic risks. The cold wallet should ideally be at a physical level to ensure absolute security.
Next is the need for decentralization. As the industry has developed over the years and the number of participants has increased, we may not have the solution from the beginning and could only trust our internal team to handle certain tasks. Now, with the rise of remote work, internal employees have been infiltrated by North Korean entities, with high-privileged employees within the organization. Therefore, we cannot entirely trust the internal processes. Thus, at this level, decentralization is essential. We need to involve an external independent third party to control some private keys and conduct verification, which is also crucial. Currently, there are many custody companies, security firms, and insurance companies that can hold private keys at different levels — some holding hot wallet keys, some holding warm wallet keys, and some holding cold wallet keys. They act as external independent third parties with their security solutions to perform risk management and control. Through a series of measures, the cost and threshold of attacks will be exponentially increased.
Lastly, diversification. We have done well in globally dispersing these software and hardware, as most are already in a decentralized state. From this perspective, firstly, we must use a minimal trust system and apply the zero-trust risk design concept to design our entire internal system and architecture. This should be combined with a core asset management approach that includes layering, decentralization, and rights distribution. Additionally, we need to implement a range of software and hardware security modules, stringent internal access control processes, and establish a secure lifecycle closed-loop management system. Furthermore, having in place real-time and post-event emergency response and solutions can help us survive in high-risk and uncertain attack scenarios.
Compliant trading platforms invest more in security, while offshore platforms, facing growth pressures, lack sufficient security measures
Colin: Personally, I am curious about compliant trading platforms like Coinbase and others. Honestly, it seems that they have experienced relatively fewer theft incidents compared to offshore trading platforms, which have almost all suffered theft. Moreover, many trading platforms have been hacked multiple times. What is the reason for this? In theory, can the architecture they use be applied to offshore trading platforms as well? Maybe because offshore trading platforms have a larger fund size or operate differently. I'm not sure which security expert can answer this question.
Also, Shark, do you think facing attacks from North Korean hackers will significantly increase the startup difficulty in this industry? Will it raise the security costs for ordinary entrepreneurs or the investment they need, thereby significantly hindering the industry's development? Can the industry withstand North Korean hacker attacks, or is there a considerable level of doubt within the industry now?
Whale: Let me add a bit. My intuition is that compliant trading platforms may prioritize security more in terms of both safety and efficiency. For example, in some aspects, they may have stricter controls, so they invest heavily in security.
Offshore trading platforms theoretically have a lot of funds and can invest more in security. Whether it's early Binance or others, including the recent situation, it seems that hacks are quite frequent.
Perhaps it's because offshore trading platforms face significant growth pressure, requiring continuous high-frequency iterations, and there are more user complaints. But in compliant trading platforms, ordinary users don't have such high expectations, withdrawal requests are not as urgent, and even large withdrawals may take T+1, T+2, or I've even seen T+7, which users can accept because the user base is different, mainly institutional on compliant trading platforms. Both of these trading platforms may have a relatively long history, and I don't know if they have experienced being hacked or not. They should have a lot of internal experience in responding to security issues and can essentially consider security issues as a company's "rite of passage."
I think as long as there is enough profit margin in this industry, investing in some SaaS products can definitely attempt to address the pain points and needs of this industry. However, currently, people's awareness of security or willingness to pay is not strong. We have also seen many excellent security products, but everyone is earning hard-earned money, and even the cost is hard to balance, needing subsidies from other aspects.
Actually, this is a problem at this level, but I feel that with the advancement of cybersecurity, everyone is gradually realizing that security is a crucial matter, and investment in security will increase. This also provides certain development space and funding for companies focusing on security SaaS. From a security and architectural perspective, there are effective and verifiable solutions. However, in cases like Safe, there are probably four to five participants upstream and downstream, and to complete a transaction, coordinating between each participant is slow, and hardware upgrades are particularly slow, ultimately giving hackers a time window.
Once the issues in the blockchain industry are fully exposed and discussed, they should be able to be resolved through one or two cycles of iteration. In addition, Web2 also faces similar issues, although the resources invested in addressing security issues in Web2 are not as significant as in the blockchain industry. We see technologies like Passkey, which has been promoted to protect password security for many years, and finally in the past one or two years, it has started to be widely used, especially in some sensitive financial areas. So these foundational technologies are reusable and can be developed, including the Apple devices we use, which are rapidly iterating on the security front. Ultimately, there are solutions, but it may just require some time and financial investment. During this process, some developers with weak risk awareness and a more aggressive approach may incur some costs, but the issues can be resolved.
Founder Security Advice: Practice Zero Trust Model, Cross-Audit Verification, Regular Security Drills
Colin: For founders, recently a startup project had $50 million stolen, although many in the community are also supporting them. In terms of security for startup projects, as someone with many years of experience who has been through a lot, do you have any advice to help founders better raise their awareness of security?
Whale: I think in the process of entrepreneurship, it is essential to practice the zero trust model, which is critical. Only in the current environment, only this set of methodology and philosophy can protect everyone. At the same time, you cannot rely on some single points of failure and one-way contract audits; the basic requirement is to have at least two to three companies to conduct audits, requiring some cross-audit verification, so that some issues can be exposed in this process. Also, the fundraising pace should not be too rapid. In the early stages, you can increase the funding gradually through some internal testing, public testing, and isolate the funds, which can relatively manage the risk well.
Actually, there are many security solutions in the industry that are not very expensive, such as secure monitoring and risk control systems, which everyone should make use of. This can significantly increase the survival rate.
In the process of entrepreneurship, on the one hand, the business model should consider the user end, especially for entrepreneurs without a technical background. It is essential to spend a considerable amount of attention on security and the internal zero trust architecture, at least dedicating twenty to thirty percent of attention to this aspect. If the company does not emphasize these internal security culture and systems, and does not conduct periodic internal security phishing tests and red team drills, from the employee and human behavior perspective, everyone will slack off. You must understand that hackers may be watching you at any time. Therefore, resources and attention still need to be focused on security.
Colin: Yes, I think in the process of growing this industry, almost no company, whether it's the boss personally or the company, will not experience being hacked. Fortunately, as long as you are not completely defeated this time, whether it is individual or the entire industry, there will be some progress.
Why Not Participate in This Round of Memecoin: Feeling Unwell, Focusing on AI
Web3 Dumpling: Whale, you have always been in the crypto industry, and you are a well-known figure in this industry. At the earliest, Cobo Wallet may have been mining with everyone. I participated in all of these early activities. In this year's market conditions, I noticed that you have spoken very little about industry-related matters. Including the link you posted today, the mention of PVP was only cursory. I am more concerned that for the industry, it seems that after the last bull run, the industry has reached a bottleneck. I would like to ask Whale, where is the next trend?
Colin: Yes, Shen Yu, you have always been fond of exploring various new things. However, it seems that in this current Meme craze, I haven't seen you actively participating. What is the reason for this?
Shen Yu: The reason I don't partake in Memes is primarily because my body just can't handle it; I can't keep up with the younger generation. Another factor is that my recent focus has been on AI. AI seems like it may have some revolutionary integration with cryptocurrency in the future, potentially bringing new incremental changes. Over a year ago at an offline event, we proposed that the ultimate users of cryptocurrency might be AI agents or AI robots, rather than humans. Therefore, I have devoted a lot of effort to learning about and using AI. I can't keep up with PVP anymore; whenever I get involved, I end up just giving away money to everyone without much positive feedback. Hence, my main focus has shifted to AI.
Looking Forward to the Integration of AI and Crypto, Believing AI Agents Might Play a Significant Role in Blockchain Networks in the Future
Colin: What are your thoughts on AI at present? Because there was a previous frenzy around so-called AI Agents that crashed particularly hard; many of my friends who invested in AI ended up bankrupt. Do you think the earlier wave of AI agents generated anything attractive? And what do you consider to be good application directions for AI in conjunction with cryptocurrency?
Shen Yu: I believe that fundamentally, AI's capabilities have not yet reached that stage. Currently, we are still in a phase of concept validation. However, we can see that AI is rapidly evolving, with the underlying computational power model continually iterating. We are hopeful that AI will eventually achieve a state where it possesses general AGI (Artificial General Intelligence).
Regarding cryptocurrency, there are a couple of points. On the one hand, AI is very friendly to fully digital entities because the data is publicly transparent. Therefore, on one hand, AI may change the way we interact. For these complex smart contracts and inhumane security operations, we should be able to rely on some reliable, intelligent AI agents to assist us in making decisions. I often joke now that when I operate in decentralized finance, I must remotely arrange a few AI agents to watch over me. In the future, it may actually take this form, with a few artificial intelligence engineers and possibly one or two AI agents monitoring the screens. Looking further ahead, AI may indeed plug into the blockchain network.
Let's envision a scenario where AI agents need to interact, including exchanging value, exchanging data, possibly involving contractual aspects, and even forming loosely structured companies or DAOs. They might adopt platforms like smart contract platforms for some value exchanges. I'm thinking that maybe in the next three to five years, something akin to a web social network or a value social network will emerge on the blockchain, ultimately meant for this bunch of AI agents to use.
Once this thing emerges, the value and impact it brings could be very significant. We have always talked about the network effect of Web3, and the asset scale or value it brings may far exceed that of traditional Internet companies that we see today, so this could be something even larger in scale than the current trillion-dollar entities. I have been thinking about what this really is and what we can do in it. I am quite optimistic, although the industry has indeed not seen a good application direction emerge in the past two or three years, but I think it should happen in the future, and there are some obstacles we may be able to overcome, so I am looking forward to that day.
Safe Wallet Blind Signature Issue Solution: Enterprise Signing Tool + AI Risk Control + Blacklist/Whitelist Management
TheCheerSong: I am a trader who conducts on-chain automated transactions. After this event, in a situation where our business cannot afford to stop, we have also been upgrading our security measures. I feel the most troublesome part is still the blind signature part of the Safe Wallet. What we can do now is that we have some open-source permission control modules on our side, and then we apply them to the Safe Wallet.
In this usage process, most of the transaction requests have been automated, so the Safe Wallet is basically only used for manual token transfer operations. I would like to ask the teachers if there are any tools available at the moment to verify the signature content of our relatively simpler requests?
GodFish: In fact, as someone mentioned just now, we will be releasing next week. We have productized this internal set of tools and released this Safe enterprise signing tool. Essentially, we obtain a Safe's private key, then add some blacklists/whitelists through a machine, including some risk control templates. You can customize some common risk control measures, such as limiting token amounts, transaction speeds, setting blacklists/whitelists, etc. Then, with the capabilities of an AI Agent and considering scenarios of large losses, we can clearly outline this process and manage risks well.
This solution, combined with Cobo's previous on-chain Argus-based contract with access control lists and parameter-level controls. I feel that currently, only by doing this can my large funds be transacted on-chain with peace of mind. This is the security practice we are currently using.
Insights from Various Security Experts on the Wallet Security Issue in the Bybit Hack Event
During this Space session, BlockSec CEO Professor Zhou Yajin, OneKey Chief Growth Officer Nig, and Cobo Chief Security Officer Moon also expressed their views.
Regarding the security issue of the Bybit incident, Professor Zhou Yajin stated that the incident occurred due to a discrepancy between the operation and actual trading when using the Safe contract wallet to manage funds. This led to a malicious upgrade of the wallet and fund theft, with the exact reason not yet disclosed. Many project teams believed that using Safe multisig wallets for fund management was secure, but in reality, they overlooked that security should encompass a system-wide build across operational, non-technical, and technical aspects.
There are vulnerabilities in private key management and transaction interpretation, such as inadequate custody, signing, and transaction parsing. The security process for ensuring the physical security of private keys lacks proper handling due to the user-friendly nature. Large fund multisig transfers have a long trust chain but lack a third-party dual verification of transaction interpretation and operation interface information. Therefore, when using a contract wallet to manage large funds, third-party verification and authentication should be introduced, whitelist or delegation should be established, and flexible policy controls should be implemented on the contract wallet.
Regarding the frequent front-end tampering of Safe wallets and the security of the mainstream multisig solution Safe, Moon believes that the Safe solution and contract itself are relatively secure, but when applied, the trust chain is long, making it prone to unexpected situations. The attack on Bybit this time is most likely an outsourcing issue rather than a contract issue, highlighting the importance of daily security awareness improvement. To securely use a Safe wallet, vertical and horizontal considerations are required. Vertically, each link should have controllable technical solutions, such as independent devices, and horizontally, multisig should require independent signer verification. A long trust chain is prone to link intersections, allowing hackers to bypass validation. Therefore, horizontal expansion should not only increase the number of signers but also ensure that each signer's solution and environment are independent and self-verified to fully leverage the benefits of Safe.
Additionally, apart from using contract wallets, exchanges and high-net-worth individuals should establish rigorous mechanisms such as manual reconciliation, anomaly monitoring, automated program audits, and improve security awareness to mitigate Web2 attacks. In addition, Cobo will also launch an MPC combined with a Safe management solution, leveraging Safe's multisig capabilities to allow different signers to have independent, complete end-to-end signing chains.
Regarding the hardware wallet-related issues in the Bybit incident, Nig stated that Bybit adopted an NPC-controlled EOA wallet (due to its easily interpretable signature), while the Safe smart contract wallet has a complex and difficult-to-parse signature, which the security team may not have detected promptly. Existing hardware wallets (such as Ledger) have limited performance and struggle with complex smart contract parsing and blind signing. With early measures, this attack could have been avoided, and the Godfish team and OneKey have developed related parsing tools.
The progress of Ledger's Clear Signing is slow, and the signature data transmitted from internet-connected devices is easily compromised. Relying solely on hardware wallet parsing to ensure consistent intent is insufficient. Bybit lacked a warning this time, and after the first signer was compromised, others blind-signed due to device issues. It is recommended that high-net-worth individuals and institutions isolate fund transaction-related internet-connected devices independently from office devices to reduce intrusion risks. Previous incidents like Radium's compromise may have resulted from a lack of environment isolation.
Regarding the Security of Safe, Third-Party Monitoring Functionality, and the Application of AI in Blockchain Security, Professor Zhou Yajin believes that the security of Safe contracts has been high in the past, with multiple reviews. However, the lengthy usage process brings risks. His team has developed the Falcon Safe Security System, which can examine user transactions from a third-party perspective, analyze transaction content, provide reminders on key information such as transfers, contract interactions, etc., reduce user cognitive barriers, and avoid security issues. In terms of AI application, on the one hand, AI has reduced the cost of malicious activities, making it easier to mass-produce phishing tools. On the other hand, the industry is exploring the combination of AI and auditing, as well as automated code auditing. Although it is far from the ideal state, AI can lower the threshold for cryptocurrency users to use products, helping to address complex user operation issues.
Regarding hardware wallet-related issues, Nig responded that the company would not, like some peers, issue a rallying cry and advertise a sharp increase in sales after the exchange platform was hacked. While the increase in sales is good, it also reflects that many people have just begun to focus on private key security. In this security incident, the hardware wallet bears some responsibility, and the performance of Ledger and Safe did not meet expectations. Safe has ceased front-end and native support. The previous generation hardware wallets have limited parsing capabilities due to security considerations, while the new generation products such as Ultra and Pro will enhance local complex contract parsing, support parsing of transaction core elements, and Classic will also display selected key parts; the app will achieve mainstream EVM transaction parsing, with a slight delay in hardware-side security testing.
Regarding Safe, methods to defend against related attacks will be demonstrated in the near future, and user safety education will be conducted. In the future, despite the diverse technologies, such as OKX's lack of enthusiasm for hardware wallet integration, institutions promoting NPC wallets, etc., due to the mnemonic exposure risk during the signing process in a networked environment, hardware wallets will always focus on the physical isolation of the core. Even with changes such as mnemonic standard upgrades, the core security defense will not change.
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三月初,BlockBeats 對 Virtuals 共同創辦人 empty 進行了一次專訪。彼時,團隊尚未推出如今被廣泛討論的 Genesis Launch 機制,但已在內部持續探索如何透過機制設計激活舊資產、提高用戶參與度,並重構代幣發行與融資路徑。那是一個市場尚未復甦、生態尚處冷啟動階段的時間點,Virtuals 團隊卻沒有停下腳步,而是在努力尋找新的產品方向和敘事突破口。
兩個月過去,AI Agent 板塊重新升溫,Virtuals 代幣反彈超 150%,Genesis 機製成為帶動生態回暖的重要觸發器。從積分獲取規則的動態調整,到專案參與熱度的持續上升,再到「新代幣帶老代幣」的機制閉環,Virtuals 逐漸走出寒冬,並再次站上討論焦點。
值得注意的是,Virtuals 的 Genesis 機制與近期 Binance 推出的 Alpha 積分系統有一些相似之處,評估用戶在 Alpha 和幣安錢包生態系統內的參與度,決定用戶 Alpha 代幣空投的資格。用戶可透過持倉、交易等方式獲得積分,積分越高,參與新項目的機會越大。透過積分系統篩選使用者、分配資源,專案方能夠更有效地激勵社群參與,提升專案的公平性和透明度。 Virtuals 和 Binance 的探索,或許預示著加密融資的新趨勢正在形成。
回看這次對話,empty 在專訪中所展現出的思路與判斷,正在一步步顯現其前瞻性,這不僅是一場圍繞打新機制的訪談,更是一次關於“資產驅動型 AI 協議”的路徑構建與底層邏輯的深度討論。
BlockBeats:可以簡單分享一下最近團隊主要在忙些什麼?
empty:目前我們的工作重點主要有兩個部分。第一部分,我們希望將 Virtuals 打造成一個類似「華爾街」的代理人(Agent)服務平台。設想一下,如果你是專注於 Agent 或 Agent 團隊建立的創業者,從融資、發幣到流動性退出,整個流程都需要係統性的支援。我們希望為真正專注於 Agent 和 AI 研發的團隊,提供這一整套服務體系,讓他們可以把精力集中在底層能力的開發上,而不用為其他環節分心。這一塊的工作其實也包括了與散戶買賣相關的內容,後面可以再詳細展開。
第二部分,我們正在深入推進 AI 相關的佈局。我們的願景是建立一個 AI 社會,希望每個 Agent 都能聚焦自身優勢,同時透過彼此之間的協作,實現更大的價值。因此,最近我們發布了一個新的標準——ACP(Agent Communication Protocol),目的是讓不同的 Agent 能夠相互互動、協作,共同推動各自的業務目標。這是目前我們主要在推進的兩大方向。
BlockBeats:可以再展開說說嗎?
empty:在我看來,其實我們面對的客戶群可以分為三類:第一類是專注於開發 Agent 的團隊;第二類是投資者,包括散戶、基金等各種投資機構;第三類則是 C 端用戶,也就是最終使用 Agent 產品的個人用戶。
不過,我們主要的精力其實是放在前兩大類──也就是團隊和投資人。對於 C 端用戶這一塊,我們並不打算直接介入,而是希望各個 Agent 團隊能夠自己解決 C 端市場的拓展問題。
此外,我們也認為,Agent 與 Agent 之間的交互作用應該成為一個核心模式。簡單來說,就是未來的服務更多應該是由一個 Agent 銷售或提供給另一個 Agent,而不是單純賣給人類使用者。因此,在團隊的 BD 工作中,我們也積極幫助現有的 AI 團隊尋找這樣的客戶和合作機會。
BlockBeats:大概有一些什麼具體案例呢?
empty:「華爾街」說白了就是圍繞資本運作體系的建設,假設你是一個技術團隊,想要融資,傳統路徑是去找 VC 募資,拿到資金後開始發展。如果專案做得不錯,接下來可能會考慮進入二級市場,例如在紐約證券交易所上市,或是在 Binance 這樣的交易所上幣,實現流動性退出。
我們希望把這一整套流程打通-從早期融資,到專案開發過程中對資金的靈活使用需求,再到最終二級市場的流動性退出,全部覆蓋和完善,這是我們希望補齊的一條完整鏈條。
而這一部分的工作和 ACP(Agent Communication Protocol)是不同的,ACP 更多是關於 Agent 與 Agent 之間交互標準的製定,不直接涉及資本運作系統。
BlockBeats:它和現在 Virtuals 的這個 Launchpad 有什麼差別呢?資金也是從 C 端來是嗎?
empty:其實現在你在 Virtuals 上發幣,如果沒有真正融到資金,那就只是發了一個幣而已,實際是融不到錢的。我們目前能提供的服務,是透過設定買賣時的交易稅機制,從中提取一部分稅收回饋給創業者,希望這部分能成為他們的現金流來源。
不過,問題其實還分成兩塊。第一是如何真正幫助團隊完成融資,這個問題目前我們還沒有徹底解決。第二是關於目前專案發行模式本身存在的結構性問題。簡單來說,現在的版本有點像過去 Pumpfun 那種模式——也就是當專案剛上線時,部分籌碼就被外賣給了外部投資人。但現實是,目前整個市場上存在著太多機構集團和「狙擊手」。
當一個真正優秀的專案一發幣,還沒真正觸達普通散戶,就已經被機構在極高估值時搶購了。等到散戶能夠接觸到時,往往價格已經偏高,專案品質也可能變差,整個價值發行體係被扭曲。
針對這個問題,我們希望探索一種新的發幣和融資模式,目的是讓專案方的籌碼既不是死死握在自己手裡,也不是優先流向英文圈的大機構,而是能夠真正留給那些相信專案、願意長期支持專案的普通投資者手中。我們正在思考該如何設計這樣一個新的發行機制,來解決這個根本問題。
BlockBeats:新模式的具體想法會是什麼樣子呢?
empty:關於資金這一塊,其實我們目前還沒有完全想透。現階段來看,最直接的方式還是去找 VC 融資,或是採取公開預售等形式進行資金募集。不過說實話,我個人對傳統的公開預售模式並不是特別認同。
在「公平發售」這件事上,我們正在嘗試換一個角度來思考-希望能從「reputation」出發,重新設計機制。
具體來說,就是如果你對整個 Virtuals 生態有貢獻,例如早期參與、提供支持或建設,那麼你就可以在後續購買優質代幣時享有更高的優先權。透過這種方式,我們希望把資源更多留給真正支持生態發展的用戶,而不是由短期套利的人主導。
BlockBeats:您會不會考慮採用類似之前 Fjord Foundry 推出的 LBP 模式,或者像 Daos.fun 那種採用白名單機制的模式。這些模式在某種程度上,和您剛才提到的「對生態有貢獻的人享有優先權」的想法是有些相似的。不過,這類做法後來也引發了一些爭議,例如白名單內部操作、分配不公等問題。 Virtuals 在設計時會考慮借鏡這些模式的優點,或有針對性地規避類似的問題嗎?
empty:我認為白名單機制最大的問題在於,白名單的選擇權掌握在專案方手中。這和「老鼠倉」行為非常相似。專案方可以選擇將白名單名額分配給自己人或身邊的朋友,導致最終的籌碼仍然掌握在少數人手中。
我們希望做的,依然是類似白名單的機制,但不同的是,白名單的獲取權應基於一個公開透明的規則體系,而不是由項目方單方面決定。只有這樣,才能真正做到公平分配,避免內幕操作的問題。
我認為在今天這個 AI 時代,很多時候創業並不需要大量資金。我常跟團隊強調,你們應該優先考慮自力更生,例如透過組成社區,而不是一開始就想著去融資。因為一旦融資,實際上就等於背負了負債。
我們更希望從 Training Fee的角度去看待早期發展路徑。也就是說,專案可以選擇直接發幣,透過交易稅所帶來的現金流,支持日常營運。這樣一來,專案可以在公開建設的過程中獲得初步資金,而不是依賴外部投資。如果專案做大了,自然也會有機會透過二級市場流動性退出。
當然最理想的情況是,專案本身能夠有穩定的現金流來源,這樣甚至連自己的幣都無需拋售,這才是真正健康可持續的狀態。
我自己也常在和團隊交流時分享這種思路,很有意思的是,那些真正抱著「搞快錢」心態的項目,一聽到這種機制就失去了興趣。他們會覺得,在這種模式下,既無法操作老鼠倉,也很難短期套利,於是很快就選擇離開。
但從我們的角度來看,這其實反而是個很好的篩選機制。透過這種方式,理念不同的專案自然會被過濾出去,最後留下的,都是那些願意真正建立、和我們價值觀契合的團隊,一起把事情做起來。
BlockBeats:這個理念可以發展出一些能夠創造收益的 AI agent。
empty:我覺得這是很有必要的。坦白說,放眼今天的市場,真正擁有穩定現金流的產品幾乎鳳毛麟角,但我認為這並不意味著我們應該停止嘗試。事實上,我們每天在對接的團隊中,有至少一半以上的人依然懷抱著長遠的願景。很多時候,他們甚至已經提前向我們提供了 VC 階段的資金支持,或表達了強烈的合作意願。
其實對他們來說想要去收穫一個很好的社區,因為社區可以給他們的產品做更好的回饋,這才是他們真正的目的。這樣聽起來有一點匪夷所思,但其實真的有很多這樣的團隊,而那種團隊的是我們真的想扶持的團隊。
BlockBeats:您剛才提到的這套「AI 華爾街」的產品體系-從融資、發行到退出,建構的是一整套完整的流程。這套機制是否更多是為了激勵那些有意願發幣的團隊?還是說,它在設計上也考慮瞭如何更好地支持那些希望透過產品本身的現金流來發展的團隊?這兩類團隊在您這套體系中會不會被區別對待,或者說有什麼機制設計能讓不同路徑的創業者都能被合理支持?
empty:是的,我們 BD 的核心職責其實就是去鼓勵團隊發幣。說得直接一點,就是引導他們思考發幣的可能性和意義。所以團隊最常問的問題就是:「為什麼要發幣?」這時我們需要採取不同的方式和角度,去幫助他們理解背後的價值邏輯。當然如果最終判斷不適合,我們也不會強迫他們推進。
不過我們觀察到一個非常明顯的趨勢,傳統的融資路徑已經越來越難走通了。過去那種融資做大,發幣上所的模式已經逐漸失效。面對這樣的現實,很多團隊都陷入了尷尬的境地。而我們希望能從鏈上和加密的視角,提供一套不同的解決方案,讓他們找到新的發展路徑。
BlockBeats:明白,我剛才其實想表達的是,您剛剛也提到,傳統的 AI 模式在很大程度上仍然依賴「燒錢」競爭。但在 DeepSeek 出現之後,市場上一些資金體積較小的團隊或投資人開始重新燃起了信心,躍躍欲試地進入這個領域。您怎麼看待這種現象?這會不會對目前正在做 AI 基礎研發,或是 AI 應用層開發的團隊產生一定的影響?
empty:對,我覺得先不談 DeepSeek,從傳統角度來看,其實到目前為止,AI 領域真正賺錢的只有英偉達,其他幾乎所有玩家都還沒有實現盈利。所以其實沒有人真正享受了這個商業模式的成果,大家也仍在探索如何面對 C 端打造真正有產出的應用。
沒有哪個領域像幣圈一樣能如此快速獲得社群回饋。你一發幣,用戶就會主動去讀白皮書的每一個字,試試你產品的每個功能。
當然,這套機制並不適合所有人。例如有些 Agent 產品偏 Web2,對於幣圈用戶而言,可能感知不到其價值。因此,我也會鼓勵做 Agent 的團隊在 Virtuals 生態中認真思考,如何真正將 Crypto 作為自身產品的差異化要素加以運用與設計。
BlockBeats:這點我特別認同,在 Crypto 這個領域 AI 的迭代速度確實非常快,但這群用戶給予的回饋,真的是代表真實的市場需求嗎?或者說這些回饋是否真的符合更大眾化、更具規模性的需求?
empty:我覺得很多時候產品本身不應該是強行推廣給不適合的使用者群體。例如 AIXBT 最成功的一點就在於,它的用戶本身就是那群炒作他人內容的人,所以他們的使用行為是非常自然的,並不覺得是在被迫使用一個無聊的產品。 mass adoption 這個概念已經講了很多年,大家可能早就該放棄這個執念了。我們不如就認了,把東西賣給幣圈的人就好了。
BlockBeats:AI Agent 與 AI Agent 所對應的代幣之間,究竟應該是什麼樣的動態關係?
empty:對,我覺得這裡可以分成兩個核心點。首先其實不是在投資某個具體的 AI Agent,而是在投資背後經營這個 Agent 的團隊。你應該把它理解為一種更接近創投的思路:你投的是這個人,而不是他目前正在做的產品。因為產品本身是可以快速變化的,可能一個月後團隊會發現方向不對,立即調整。所以,這裡的「幣」本質上代表的是對團隊的信任,而不是某個特定 Agent 本身。
第二則是期望一旦某個 Agent 產品做出來後,未來它能真正產生現金流,或者有實際的使用場景(utility),從而讓對應的代幣具備賦能效應。
BlockBeats:您覺得有哪些賦能方式是目前還沒看到的,但未來可能出現、值得期待的?
empty:其實主要有兩塊,第一是比較常見的那種你要使用我的產品,就必須付費,或者使用代幣支付,從而間接實現對代幣的「軟銷毀」或消耗。
但我覺得更有趣的賦能方式,其實是在獲客成本的角度思考。也就是說,你希望你的用戶同時也是你的投資者,這樣他們就有動機去主動幫你推廣、吸引更多用戶。
BlockBeats:那基於這些觀點,您怎麼看 ai16z,在專案設計和代幣機制方面,似乎整體表現並不太樂觀?
empty:從一個很純粹的投資角度來看,撇開我們與他們之間的關係,其實很簡單。他們現在做的事情,對代幣本身沒有任何賦能。從開源的角度來看,一個開源模型本身是無法直接賦能代幣的。
但它仍然有價值的原因在於,它像一個期權(call option),也就是說,如果有一天他們突然決定要做一些事情,比如推出一個 launchpad,那麼那些提前知道、提前參與的人,可能會因此受益。
開發者未來確實有可能會使用他們的 Launchpad,只有在那一刻,代幣才會真正產生賦能。這是目前最大的一個問號——如果這個模式真的跑得通,我認為確實會非常強大,因為他們的確觸達了大量開發者。
但我個人還是有很多疑問。例如即使我是使用 Eliza 的開發者,也不代表我一定會選擇在他們的 Launchpad 上發幣。我會貨比三家,會比較。而且,做一個 Launchpad 和做一個開源框架,所需的產品能力和社群運作能力是完全不同的,這是另一個重要的不確定性。
BlockBeats:這種不同是體現在什麼地方呢?
empty:在 Virtuals 上我們幾乎每天都在處理客服相關的問題,只要有任何一個團隊在我們平台上發生 rug,即使與我們沒有直接關係,用戶也會第一時間來找我們投訴。
這時我們就必須出面安撫用戶,並思考如何降低 rug 的整體風險。一旦有團隊因為自己的代幣設計錯誤或技術失誤而被駭客攻擊、資產被盜,我們往往需要自掏腰包,確保他們的社群至少能拿回一點資金,以便專案能夠重新開始。這些項目方可能在技術上很強,但未必擅長代幣發行,結果因操作失誤被攻擊導致資產損失。只要涉及「被欺騙」相關的問題,對我們來說就已經是非常麻煩的事了,做這些工作跟做交易所的客服沒有太大差別。
另一方面,做 BD 也非常困難。優秀的團隊手上有很多選擇,他們可以選擇在 Pumpfun 或交易所上發幣,為什麼他們要來找我們,那這背後必須要有一整套支援體系,包括融資支援、技術協助、市場推廣等,每個環節都不能出問題。
BlockBeats:那我們就繼續沿著這個話題聊聊 Virtuals 目前的 Launchpad 業務。有一些社群成員在 Twitter 上統計了 Virtuals Launchpad 的整體獲利狀況,確實目前看起來獲利的項目比較少。接下來 Launchpad 還會是 Virtuals 的主要業務區嗎?還是說,未來的重心會逐漸轉向您剛才提到的「AI 華爾街」這條路徑?
empty:其實這兩塊本質上是一件事,是一整套體系的一部分,所以我們必須繼續推進。市場的波動是很正常的,我們始終要堅持的一點是:非常清楚地認識到我們的核心客戶是誰。我一直強調我們的客戶只有兩類——團隊。所以市場行情的好壞對我們來說並不是最重要的,關鍵是在每一個關鍵節點上,對於一個團隊來說,發幣的最佳選擇是否依然是我們 Virtuals。
BlockBeats:您會不會擔心「Crypto + AI」或「Crypto AI Agent」這一類敘事已經過去了?如果未來還有一輪多頭市場,您是否認為市場炒作的焦點可能已經不再是這些方向了?
empty:有可能啊,我覺得 it is what it is,這確實是有可能發生的,但這也屬於我們無法控制的範圍。不過如果你問我,在所有可能的趨勢中,哪個賽道更有機會長期保持領先,我仍然認為是 AI。從一個打德撲的角度來看,它仍然是最優選擇。
而且我們團隊的技術架構和底層能力其實早已搭建完成了,現在只是順勢而為而已。更重要的是,我們本身真的熱愛這件事,帶著好奇心去做這件事。每天早上醒來就有驅動力去研究最新的技術,這種狀態本身就挺讓人滿足的,對吧?
很多時候,大家不應該只看產品本身。實際上很多優秀的團隊,他們的基因決定了他們有在規則中勝出的能力——他們可能過去在做派盤交易時,每筆規模就是上百萬的操作,而這些團隊的 CEO,一年的薪資可能就有 100 萬美金。如果他們願意出來單幹項目,從天使投資或 VC 的視角來看,這本質上是用一個很划算的價格買到一個高品質的團隊。
更何況這些資產是 liquid 的,不是鎖倉狀態。如果你當下不急著用錢,完全可以在早期階段買進一些優秀團隊的代幣,靜靜等待他們去創造一些奇蹟,基本上就是這樣一個邏輯。